Episode #037 Using Manipulation Techniques for Good with Peter Monson
Braxton and Peter start off the show with using the Bug-A-Salt to kill a pesky fly that wouldn’t leave them alone during the interview. If you want to be “Rambo, if he couldn’t hurt anyone” -Peter Monson It’s definitely more fun than using fun than a fly swatter.Here;s a link to
Peter Monson was trained as a US Army interrogator and works in politics and communications. He has a simple and effective way of teaching us how to identify harmful manipulation and how to use supportive and win/win manipulation techniques.
We often see Manipulation in only a negative light. However, in this episode we identify ways you can use manipulation to benefit your relationship, improve your win/win situations with your children, and get what you want without causing damage. It takes a lot of self-awareness and empathy to be responsible with your words while realizing what they could do in your relationship down the road. Braxton and Peter talk about manipulation parents use on each other, teens, and children as well as what manipulation children use on parents. We also cover how to address them so real communication can occur.
See below for main topics we discuss and where they can be found in the show (maybe add 5 minutes to each because the introduction is taken out\. See bolded sections in transcript to read on the topic or skip to the approximate time in the recording)
OUR BRAINS CANT HOLD TWO THINGS AT ONCE. 09:34
FLOODING AND REPETITION MANIPULATION 12:53
RADICAL EMPATHY 17:17
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TEENAGERS AND PARENTS 23:43
HOW TRIANGULATION WORKS and HOW TO DEFUSE IT 27:40
CONSENT 37:32
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO SHAME YOU 48:23
THE WOMAN IN THE RED DRESS, PLAYING INTO THE PATTERN 53:37
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Show Transcription:
Peter Monson : 00:00 I mean, if you’re going to kill a fly, you kill a fly. In the famous words of Ron Swanson, don’t halfass anything whole ass. One thing. Hold on. Just one thing for those wondering what we’re even talking about. We have a, a, a bug assault that’s Bug-A-Salt the original salt gun. Probably the best purchase I’ve made off of Amazon in the last six months. I’ll put it in the description of where you can get the bug assault and the best thing is is that Emerson and Aspen love it because if there’s, you know, flies in the house, they will go out as like forward observers, find the flies and then like announce it so I can tactically take the fly out of the game.
Peter Monson : 00:53 I can’t tell you how many hours we’ve spent with them finding targets for me to hit.
Braxton Dutson: 00:58 So it builds parental and child relationships.
Peter Monson : 01:00 I mean, If you want a militaristic parent, child relationship where you’re all ready to take on a foreign country, then yes. Yeah. This is. This is, this is your thing.
Braxton Dutson: 01:11 Oh, I love it. The reason we brought it out is because the last episode we recording was totally. There was one fly that was just hanging around Pete’s head and then it would land.
Peter Monson : 01:20 It landed on my lip and I’m like, I’m like, do I brush it off? Is it going to go on the mic? I’m just gonna. I’m gonna. Sit with it. There’s one part that it did fly right by the mic and was like, have fun editing that out.
Braxton Dutson: 01:32 Nope. Not going to. Just going to stay there, but met its maker.
Peter Monson : 01:37 I think we should just make. I think you should. You should rack one more round. Just. Yes, it’s all salt loaded. It’s like Rambo. If you couldn’t hurt anybody,
Braxton Dutson: 01:48 So if you shot yourself in the foot with this, it’s just a sting?
Peter Monson : 01:50 I don’t know. Braxton, why don’t we try? I think this is a really good idea. Braxton. I feel like this will be good for you.
Braxton Dutson: 01:57 Okay. Here it goes. Three, two, one. You have to release the safety. I have to release the safety. Now it’s even harder! (gun fires)
Peter Monson : 02:07 And??
Braxton Dutson: 02:08 It doesn’t hurt. It didn’t hurt at two feet away. Now my sock is full of salt…. Anyways, welcome back to birds and the bees podcast. We are continuing on our conversation today about manipulation. And actually this is part two of the series we’re doing here with Peter Monson.
Braxton Dutson: 02:35 We are talking today about the different techniques of manipulation, like some that are that you can notice or negative or unhelpful techniques as well as helpful techniques building the bridges, being able to get into the wind wind, kind of like what we were talking about last time and we’re just gonna Kinda go into it talking about how kids tend to use, um, methods of, of manipulation, how you can help fully show them different ways to communicate with you, how you as a parent can do the same to your child or with your partner. We want to be able to give you skills and tips to be able to get what you want and not cause the problems or the harm that that we were talking about in the last episode. So I’m excited for this and we started with shooting me in the foot with salt,
Peter Monson : 03:26 you know, if we didn’t do something that was just ridiculous and time wasting, I feel like it wouldn’t be so authentically us. So first I think we need to talk a little bit about the very real idea that you, through your words, put an input into somebody’s brain or through whatever kind of input. Right? We’re going to play a game and I haven’t told you anything about this. Have I know one part of this because I have some context. We have a relationship that we’ve built. We have rapport. I know a little bit about you. Yeah. I’m going to make you think of a word. Okay. So are you ready? Yeah, I’m ready to play. Okay. So I want you to say the next word that comes to your brain. Okay. (Peter mimicks the tune to Thunder by AC/DC) Na na na na na na na na da.
Braxton Dutson: 04:18 “THUNDER!”
Peter Monson : 04:18 Exactly right. So I put an input in and you had to say “thunder.”
Braxton Dutson: 04:24 Oh yeah. It was compulsive.
Peter Monson : 04:26 Yeah. Because you listened to enough ACDC and your life flutters away. Yeah. Realizing that every input we put into a relationship has an effect we talked about before I started off my career, trained as a US army interrogator. Human intelligence. I wish to say that I am not going to share anything that’s top secret. It was a top secret position. Parts of it were. But what I’m gonna speak from is a lot of my own experience and so some of the, some of the things that we’re going to talk about a do draw from that experience in the military, but lots of it draw from my education in my professional experience. The brain likes the patterns. You know, oftentimes in a, in a conversation with somebody, you’re already thinking of the next thing to say to what they just said.
Peter Monson : 05:19 You’re not really listening. Wow, I’m adjusted that you’re saying. I’m like, AH, shoot. I mean, it’s. It’s kind of like, yeah, you know, you want to your brain, uh, lots of people’s brains are naturally competitive. You want to win the discussion, you want to look better, you want to feel good, you want, you want something. And so lots of times when we talk about manipulation, it, it comes with an incentive. Okay? So one of the first ones that we should talk about is bringing up ego.
Braxton Dutson: 06:00 Okay. so this is the part of you that you really enjoy about yourself or someone’s, when you say stroking your ego or something, it’s, wow, you did this really good. You’re such a great person. You’re, Whoa,
Peter Monson : 06:11 that’s landed on a little bit thick.
Braxton Dutson: 06:13 Well, it’s hardcore ego stroking
Peter Monson : 06:16 Uh… phrasing, anyway, if we’re really talking about it, the idea is the empowerment and the bringing recognition of something that somebody is doing really well.
Peter Monson : 06:32 One I heard recently was a teacher talking about how, “how do you talk to your kids?” How do you talk to your kids in the classroom? And we were having this discussion and I said, “you know, when was the last time that you put out the message that everybody in the classroom does something great and then individually told them.” And the teacher was like, “I try to. It’s tough.” Um, but we, we run into the same things with relationships time, you know, you’re tired, you’re, you know, just these different things. But if you can get the pattern going with your significant others, children, partners, you really can get that pattern where their brain starts thinking more positively about themselves.
Peter Monson : 07:20 So, you know, if I was with with my wife instead of saying you did the dishes but you didn’t do the counters and for the record, I’m flipping this around because my job is the dishes and the counters and this is sometimes what she does to me.
Peter Monson : 07:41 There’s two ways that I go about it. One, when I’m tired, when I’m upset, you know, I would say “Ugh, why couldn’t you do the counters?” Instead when I’m in the right space, when I’m really trying to bring her up and show that pattern of love, I can say, “wow! I know you had such a rough day to day. I know how much you work. You did an awesome job on the dishes. Like, thank you so much for doing that for our family.” And it doesn’t feel like I’m laying it on too thick, like it feels that I’m seeing her story and I’m realizing what the sacrifice was, you know, of her taking the time to do the dishes and then I could lead into, “hey, so as far as the counters go, what can we, what can we do to get the counters down? Do I need to help out? Do you need my help, what, you know, just this kind of thing.”
Peter Monson : 08:38 Because while we love patterns, the inputs get outputs. We also love to tell our story. You know, there, there’s times that you just really want to speak up and you almost have to like bridal yourself back from telling you the story of you, you know, when, when it’s not the appropriate time. But we all want to tell our stories. And so when you assume the story of, of a partner, you know, like I assume to Bonnie had a really tough day. Maybe it turns out she didn’t and I said that, but how would you feel like, oh wow. Hey, you know, I didn’t have a rough day, but I like that you acknowledged the let’s see that they do have tough days and that my job is tough
Braxton Dutson: 09:32 That means the world to her.
09:34 OUR BRAINS CANT HOLD TWO THINGS AT ONCE.
Peter Monson : 09:34 Exactly. And then she probably would be fine talking about what the counters did or didn’t do, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s emotional setup to then get to the real idea because our brains also can’t hold two thoughts at once. Yeah. And so Bonnie and I have worked in the pattern of and every time I do the dishes, Bonnie says this about the counters or you know, it’s, it’s that idea of whenever I hear dishes encounters in the same sentence, I’m pattern to be like, okay, here comes. Rather than actually listening to the words, “dishes and counters” and all the other words in a sentence.
Braxton Dutson: 10:19 Gotcha. You, you move yourself to the story of what it’s been associated with. Exactly what. Hey, I love that. It’s like, Oh, you did the dishes. Oh, great. Here we’re having the conversation about blah, blah, blah. While you’re still talking about what you want to, so we already have this pattern involved and it’s derailing that pattern and being able to to stay present with what’s going on,
Peter Monson : 10:42 Right, and from personal experience when this happens, how do you grow if you’re not listening, how do you really grow? How do you see the other person? Um, and so recognizing the pattern helps not only the person who’s doing the manipulation but also the person who’s being manipulated.
Braxton: 11:04 Say that one more time. So you have, you have the pattern?
Peter Monson : 11:07 So lets, let’s take for example the dishwasher and the spouse. The dishwasher needs to do some self reflection of “how do I actually receive the message?” Am I receiving it just based off of the past history of these same conversations that we keep having or am I actually trying to understand what spouse is saying and then spouse trying to manipulate dishwasher to do the counters can say, am I sounding like I usually do.
Peter Monson : 11:38 Am I using the same verbiage? Am I saying in the same way? Am I seeing this person in my building that rapport or am I just pissed that the counters are done and I’m saying whatever, and I’m just reacting to it in it’s the level. Exactly.
Braxton: 11:53 Definitely. So a ton of self reflection while you’re also trying to have a situation change.
Peter Monson : 11:58 Which is really hard because our minds can’t hold two things at once
Braxton: 12:05 and it’s dealing with an emotional reaction of “I work so hard and the counters are never done!” Whenever this and this happens. So that’s tough.
Peter Monson : 12:12 Yeah. So we need to recognize that our minds can’t hold two things at once. And so by self, uh, you know, kind of checking in with myself before going into a situation, you can really get a lot of the emotion way
Braxton: 12:28 and sometimes that can be hard too because as you do that, there’s a part of you that really wants to be frustrated. And it’s like, “no, we’re walking in and we’re going to say exactly what’s going on. You know, the counters have not been done in quite some time now” Or whatever the story who wants to go on and if you can go, you know what, I’m not in really good position to be able to talk about the counters right now. Maybe I should take a deep breath. If I want something to change, we’re going to have to approach this in a different way.
FLOODING AND REPETITION MANIPULATION
Peter Monson : 12:54 Well, and that’s kind of the messaging that you’re giving yourself, right? Yeah. The little voice in your head. And so once again, it’s just the manipulation of how am I going to approach this? What is this gonna look like? Um, so one of the, one of the best ones in my opinion is, is building that person up. Now on the flip side, there’s bring somebody down and we see this in a lot of abusive relationships and there’s some, some ways that you see it that from the outside, it immediately like pings in your head. Like that’s not a good relationship. Yeah. I’m one of those is like working on the hate of things that we’re vulnerable about that we talked about in the last episode of pinpointing those things that we don’t feel confident about. Yeah. And pushing that button. Two ways that I’ve learned, and you see this all the time in political debates is one is repetition saying the same thing over and over again. And the other is rapid fire. Like, like flooding a person. Yeah. Like flooding is just like. So um, for example, you’ve got bright dishwasher and spouse, spouse walks in and says, why aren’t the countersign? Dishwasher says, well, I’m getting to them. Why aren’t the counter stone? Well, I, I just have to wire up the counter stuff and it’s, it’s tough. Like what do you say? Eventually dishwasher’s going to get to the point where they just break and say, fine, okay.
Peter Monson : 14:35 The countersign just. But the way that it carries is so tough that yes, the counters are done. It’s getting that goal. Like, yay!, you’ve manipulated the situation to get the counters done, but you’ve done immense damage to the other person’s view of themselves.
Braxton: 14:52 So the dishwasher is viewing themselves in quite a negative way of I can’t do it right or I can’t do enough or I should have. Yeah. There’s a lot of damage that happens there. Yeah.
Peter Monson : 15:04 Or the flooding as you talked about, or has you had named it is right. Spouse comes into dishwasher and says, (In a fast paced no break barrage of words) “I can’t believe You didn’t get the dishes done. Why don’t you get the dishes done? I’ve all or the counters and I’ve always asked you to do the counters. The counters aren’t done. We can’t have this kind of home. Like this is just too much. You’re really, you know, holding the cleanliness things. Yeah. Well I mean, okay, that’s the broken one, that’s why we never have friends over…” Or something like that. And it’s just flood and flood and, and because our minds can’t hold one thing at once or more than one thing at once. You get this flood of all these emotional, you know, things that are just freak out. And then, you know, if you get the goal of the counters being clean, you still have this really frazzled emotionally triggered person cleaning these counters that just doesn’t feel like they can release this energy, this pent up frustration because they’ll just get another flood. Yeah. You know, and, and unfortunately society and overwhelmed and you start getting down on yourself and you know, it can lead to really negative patterns. You’ve got to release that energy somehow. You know, maybe you’re not doing the most healthy way.
Peter Monson : 16:30 Maybe you lash out at somebody else. You know, especially a kid, kids are so easy to lash out at because they’re just sponges. And so when we give a kid too many directions, when we flood them, it’s tough. And then they got to go release the energy somewhere else. Or if we give the kid like, “don’t do that.” Well I was just… “Don’t do that.” Well, I … “don’t do that.” It’s like, well now parent and doesn’t think I can do anything other than just do or not do. The parent thinks I’m not good enough. Parent thinks that no matter what I do, you know, it’s just don’t do that. It it emotionally, distances in the opposite to that as being able to sort of few child comes up to you and it’s like, why did you do that? And he’s like, well, I was just “don’t do that.”
RADICAL EMPATHY
Braxton: 17:18 The opposite of that would be the. I was listening to them hearing what they’re saying. It’s like, I understand that you were really curious about doing this and I told you not to do. Do we see what’s going on here? Like now that we’ve done this, that there’s this consequence that has come up. You’re okay, I’m glad you’re okay. However, there is a consequence for not following directions. “Well, I didn’t want to know I didn’t know about this and this and this. And you’re hearing them and you’re like, oh yeah, I completely understand.”
Peter Monson : 17:44 And it gives that radical empathy gives great opportunity. Maybe your kid really didn’t know what was going on. Yeah, but you’re so emotionally just frustrated with your kid that you don’t want to take the time to be radically am, you know, empathetic.
Braxton: 18:03 But you, you have your emotions going on to your child, didn’t listen to you. Of course. I mean that’s annoying.
Peter Monson : 18:09 I’m not, I’m no way saying that I am like the perfect person to follow on this, you know, there’s times where it’s 8:30 and emerson will not get his, you know, jammies on and I’m just like, just do what I say. But if I slow down and realize, hey, like he’s concerned about going to bed, then he has his teeth brushed and his water and his animal. You know, like when I can check in with myself, I realized okay, there’s a story, there’s a person behind this action. It’s not just this action that’s not the cold, radical empathy. Radical empathy. Love it. One of the other ones I think you’re talking about was Bridge building? no, the upper! I think I even mentioned that in the last one is, is that the upper? Yeah, that’s the upper, it’s building That person up. The upper building, the person up. Gotcha. And the Downer. Downing is taking them down, making them feel not, you know, lots of times. Not Worthy. Now their self worth is not to your expectations and
Braxton: 19:21 you started talking about this in the last one or even I think explained a little bit, but the bridge building, Hey, I see. How did you word that? “I would like this because of this, this, this, and it would benefit the both of us.”
Peter Monson : 19:35 Right? So another term that we typically tend to, um, to not like is assumption. Making an assumption about the partner, right? You want to hear their story so much, but what about when the other person’s not sharing their story? What do you do? Assume. Yeah. So how can you assume pretty accurately? Well, they’ve told you some things in the past. You kind of see how your actions, you know, over the last, let’s say you’re, you’re in a dating situation, you’ve lived together for two years, you’ve seen how some of your actions, you know, affect them, you put that input in and maybe it’s not always giving you the output you wanted, but you kind of, you build this rapport, you get these patterns and you can kind of see where things are working and where they’re not. But once you hit that wall of they just won’t say anything, they won’t go any further, you know, trying to make this choice. Then you can look at it and say, Hey, I think given this circumstance and given the past, these things are important to my partner. If I, if I use these to explain where I’m coming from, I, I’ll connect to what they usually like to what they usually want.
Peter Monson : 20:51 So is it assuming? Yes. But if it cracks that, that shell of not speaking, not communicating, and they come out of it and they say, well actually you’re wrong. Great. You’ve got, you know, you got a little bit of light. it’s manipulation and say, “you know what, Hey, I realized that I don’t know what you’re talking about and that you’re, that I’m wrong. What is it that would work? What does it look like to you?” If the situation was great, you know, and we talked about people wanting to tell their stories. It’s the incentive. I am now giving you a platform to tell me your story, and of course you want to tell it. Yeah. You know, and then there are those times where we’re just emotionally not ready to speak and emotional. The trust. There needs to be some trust involved.
Braxton: 21:42 I mean, there could be a lot of hurt. Yeah. Whatever it may your each individual situation. This isn’t a pull a lever and needs are going to be met. This is, we’re dealing with humans, right? There’s a lot of variables.
Peter Monson : 21:57 Yeah, and the fun thing, and I say fun because I nerd out about people’s choices. And the fun thing is, is that there isn’t a winning. You’re never going to get the perfect response because your perfect response is so much different than somebody else’s. Perfect. Nailed it. Yeah, for sure. So you’re going to get the response that you’re going to get and you got to meet it where it is. You got to say, “oh, that was the response.” Well, yeah. Wow. I need to self reflect now too. You know, it’s just one minute. Population is done in such a way that the intent is great and you’ve, you’ve taken into account the other variables.
Peter Monson : 22:39 It can be such a growing experience for the person that’s trying to manipulate as well as the person that’s being manipulated.
Braxton: 22:45 Yeah. Learning yourself because you’re reflecting on what is coming up and there might be some truth is like, I don’t want to open up to you because I feel like you judged me for things you can react. “I don’t judge you!”
Peter Monson : 22:58 Yeah. That is one reaction. The other reaction can be like, “wow, actually I think I do judge you.”
Braxton: 23:04 Exactly. One is the vulnerable piece. The other one is I’m going to meet you with defensiveness. I just want you to do what I want you to do.
Peter Monson : 23:11 Exactly, and that’s what we want. That’s where we go back to the Thor versus superman kind of thing. It’s like D, is the goal a better world that these two actors are in? Or is the goal to get what you want?
Braxton: 23:25 Yeah completely. When someone’s using this, would you say the, the opposite of this, when someone’s asking for the assumptions is using the assumptions and sticking to what those assumptions are?
Peter Monson : 23:37 Yes.
Braxton: 23:38 That it becomes the harmful. I’m now putting you down because. Well, assuming…
23:43 RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TEENAGERS AND PARENTS
Peter Monson : 23:43 Yes. Yeah. You know, um, we see this a lot with the relationship between teenagers and parents do tell for example, because I’m just trying to use my own experience. I was so into email, like dashboard confessionals. Yeah, it was, it was a bad time. It happens, you know, go arts. Um, but, uh, yeah, I did the whole dye, my hair black thing. I unfortunately was cutting my arm, you know, I, I just, I wanted so much to feel something because of the suppression that I was trying to work through that I just, I felt flat, I felt nothing, you know, and one of my parents freaked out and was like, are you doing drugs or you know, are you, you know, who your friends that you’re running around with his and I had great friends! I didn’t do drugs ever. I just wanted to deal with this depression. I didn’t know the healthy way out of it, but they stuck to that assumption that obviously I was doing something wrong and they were going to make sure that I was disconnected from everything because they wanted to make sure I didn’t do anything wrong when in fact like connection was exactly what I needed. But sticking to that assumption rather than giving a space for the child voice, it really did some damage. Now the other parent that was a little bit differently when they found out, they just took me for a drive and we didn’t talk a, they turn on NPR, which I grew to love as an outlet. Um, and we just listen to wait, wait, don’t tell me it. There was no assumption. There was no nothing. It was just, hey, I don’t get what you’re going through, but I get that you just need a little bit of space and I’ll be right here. I felt calm. I finally felt something. I was manipulated into feeling something which was exactly what I wanted. And so it’s just, you got to let go of those assumptions, but you also need to learn how those assumptions can lead into something that can be positive.
Braxton: 26:07 Yeah. And it goes back into if the parent, the one that took you on an NPR ride was like “this this hinges on how good of a parent I am.” You’re going to react in an emotional way and try and force what a good parent looks like, what your version of a good parent is.
Peter Monson : 26:23 Right?
Braxton: 26:24 My child will not do X. my child will do this. Good parents make their children blah. Yeah. If you, if you were, if you can look back at yourself or even look at yourself and go, am I forcing something because I want my child or my spouse to act a certain way to make me look like a good parent, a good partner, whatever it may be. That’s a great time to go home. I need to check what my, what my motives are all.
Peter Monson : 26:56 And that’s why learning positive manipulation is so healthy. Because then you have to check in with yourself. You have to say, how are my consequences or how are my actions going to affect others? What’s the consequence before you even go into the situation?
Braxton: 27:12 Good call.
Peter Monson : 27:16 I mean it’s, it’s like saying, “okay, we’ll do all these things, but don’t do them, but only when they work, but not when…” you know, like, yeah, it doesn’t work that way now, now and whatever. We’re trying to use a power structure over someone else. There’s a very good chance in my experience that your intent might not be all the way there.
27:40 HOW TRIANGULATION WORKS and HOW TO DEFUSE IT
Braxton: 27:40 Yeah. That you’re trying to gain power and control over someone else. Yeah. Um, or, or over a situation when it comes to that. So this is where I’ve been excited to ask you this about the triangulation of when kids. This is, I, I know this happens in relationships where people or the parents or the caregivers are in the same home. I do see, and this is just anecdotal, I don’t have any research on this, but I do see an increase when it comes to divorced parents or separated parents where we’ve got a child that’s bouncing between two adults and that can be in home. That can be, if parents are separated, whatever it may be, but the triangulation. Can you tell me about how triangulation work?
Peter Monson : 28:25 Yeah. So triangulation is a fantastic way to manipulate to systems of power. Yeah. Right. So if you are, let’s say the child and you want to get whatever it is you want, you know, like let’s say you want to go sleep at your friend’s house, but parent a won’t let you parent b won’t let you. Right? So you’re not going to get out. But if you can turn these two systems of power on each other, then they will be so caught up in there fighting that you’re good. Like runaway to your, your, your friend’s house, you know, so oftentimes between a separated parties. And granted I kind of talked about this political and military scheme. Yes. There by all means is essentially just down drag out and from my friends that have had a really rough divorce. This is very true. And I’ve also got friends who’ve had really amicable divorces and it’s like they’re so on the same page that they’re kids just go, I’m not going to get away with this.
Peter Monson : 29:36 I’ll stop. So power structure a and power structure be when they separate oftentimes have a lot of old wounds that they haven’t taken care of because of the history. Right? And they want to get back. You want to manipulate, you want to just, you know, hurt happen. And so power structure a, the child can approach and say, look, I know you don’t want me to go spend the night, but power structure B is telling me I can. And so I don’t know if you want to talk to them or not. I know you really, it, you get really upset when everybody doesn’t agree and I don’t want to drive a wedge between, you know, the assumption of exactly what the other person’s feeling. But, you know, I just thought you should know what power structure bees doing old then. Oh man, you just emotionally triggered something. You go after power structure B and the child can slip away. Kids slip out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s the same exact thing. Kinda, you know, World War II, you had all these power structure fighting and the US was like, now we’re good. Like if you want to fight Germany and Germany wants to fight over here and you guys get Britain were so good. Like I’ll just stay out of it. And it wasn’t until it touched and they realize, oh, you know, we got to get into this. Um, but, and that’s a very simple way of looking at it. But the triangulation really is just, you know, and sometimes parents will use the child against power structure, you know, A. or, you know, when everybody can be on the same, on the same playing field, it gives peace. A much better chance
Braxton: 31:35 That’s what I think I see the most of is not so much the child that’s going well that, you know, lying about the power structure be wanting something that isn’t really there, but mostly playing on power structure A and saying, oh my gosh, if you, if you loved me or something, maybe not as extreme, but just like, I really want to do this and you know, I never get to do something along these lines. And it’s like, oh. And there’s an, there’s a way for either to poke power structure be and being like, oh, I know they don’t like this, but I’ll let you do at this time and gain favor.
Peter Monson : 32:10 Yeah. It’s, it’s a false sense of trust and rapport.
Braxton: 32:13 Yes.
Peter Monson : 32:14 Because whenever it’s built on negative manipulation, it can be taken away right immediately
Braxton: 32:20 and used as counter manipulation.
Peter Monson : 32:22 Yeah. So when you don’t hold those boundaries, it can really, it can really hurt. And you see countries that do that too. Like, oh, we will pay you to stop this war. Well, what happens when the money runs out?
Peter Monson : 32:37 The war starts again
Peter Monson : 32:38 Exactly!
Braxton: 32:40 Like the whole mafia “we will protect you for as long as that money keeps coming? we wouldn’t want anything to happen to ya” and your left like “well crap, there’s no way out of this.”
Peter Monson : 32:51 Right? So the idea that when two countries have fantastic boundaries, they have peace accords, if that’s what you want to call it, between a divorced couple, a peace accord, a peace accord, have good boundaries, have a common goal, um, exchange information very quickly and very precisely. Nobody can pull one over on them.
Braxton: 33:15 Because they are in communication, they’ve got similar goals or at least they’re understanding what their role is, right?
Peter Monson : 33:21 Yeah. Right. And I mean, there’s always political nuances, but the fact of the matter is because they’re so interwoven and each other’s goals, if somebody tries to play one off the other, it’s like, nope, now I know where they are. I don’t know who you, the outside actor are, and I’m going to trust the person that I know.
Braxton: 33:43 Yeah. Is there a way that when, when there has been hurts for parents, so say a parent is like, no, these are our hardcore goals or rules in the house and the other parent is more permissive and they’re like, “well, I don’t think that that works very well.” Is that a point in time where both need to come to the bridge building and saying like, power structure a is very authoritarian working on, we’ve got to do this and this and this and this and this and these are the rules I expect over at your house. Power structure, b’s house power structure. He’s like, that’s ridiculous. My child can go to sleep at midnight on the weekend instead of 10:30. Yeah. Then it’s like, well, we’re having a problem. One is kind of held back of like, well, whatever neener, neener and the other one is like trying to gain power control over something they don’t have control over. Is there a way to meet both of those were to restructure that?
Peter Monson : 34:39 Yeah, there is a way to restructure it. Oftentimes in our democratic two party system, we see when kind of this respectful discourse, you know, debate kind of thing, starts favoring one up, you know, opponent instead of the other, um, oftentimes when you’re kind of back on the ropes, then you start putting out these assumptions of, well, you should do this, you know, the incumbent has been doing this for so many years, they should be doing this. You don’t have any idea what’s going on in their party, in their house, you don’t know, but it breaks down the, you know, the respect. So the best thing that can be done is saying that’s what they do. This is what I do. Let’s sit down, let’s talk it out. And they are going to be those core anchoring values that I’m not going to let go of. And I know they’ve got those core anchoring values that they’re not going to let go of. But right now it is so angry and so tense that anything improving on this, even if it’s a small step, is better than nothing. Yeah. So in politics, maybe that’s two candidates coming together and say, hey, we’re not going to use a attack ads. We’re not gonna, you know, call each other names great. That is better than it was. Um, as far as with with parents, you know, co parenting. I have a friend who they went through a rough divorce but got great kids and, and uh, there’s things her ex husband does that she just hates, but they’re not a big enough hill to die on. So her, her way, she manipulates his, goes in and says, hey, you do that really big thing that hurts me. I don’t like it, but I realize your values, your core beliefs are different than mine. In that case, can I have this?
Braxton: 36:51 (Laughter between both Braxton and Peter) “In that case I would like this thing, that you don’t like so much.
Peter Monson : 36:56 It’s, it’s messing with that idea of “I know I’m not going to get the perfection that I want, so maybe I can manipulate this by calling the other person’s mind back to this thing that they do.” And that’s a huge, big thing in grandizing. I say, I know everything about what you’re doing. It’s terrible. “Can I just have this little thing on the side please?” I’m not saying it’s the healthiest way to go about it, but over time they become more and more open to change in the little things which add up to a big thing.
Braxton: 37:30 Yeah.
Peter Monson : 37:30 You know, and that’s, that’s mutual respect.
37:32 CONSENT
Braxton: 37:32 Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Is there a ways to go about teaching kids these positive manipulations through is through educating? Is it through just pure showing? What thoughts do you have on that?
Peter Monson : 37:44 Um, my thoughts on that. Are Our consent consent? Yes. Because consent for anything, for someone to get your consent when originally you’re like on the fence of giving or not giving, it means there was a shift in choice. There was a manipulation. If you hold to your consent and say, I’m not going to consent to have sexual relations with you unless I know you are using protection, either they’re going to use protection or they’re not. And if they don’t, you have your consent, you don’t give it and you’d walk away. It’s that same idea that nobody can manipulate you unless you allow them to get their final goal out of you so you can hold the conversation. They can say, oh, but I don’t, I don’t like using a condom. It feels weird. It’s, you know, don’t you love me? Don’t you care about how I feel when we have sex? Yeah, I do, but I’m not going to give my consent unless we’re using protection. Yeah, it just, it holds a firm line and it says that you have power. You have power over you and your choices.
Braxton: 38:59 Yeah.
Peter Monson : 39:01 So that’s, that’s a big thing. And, and even with our five-year-old, we talk about consent, you know, he’s got this, this friend who talks about having these big magic powers and they’re the best thing in the world and he gets scared about it. You know, my son gets scared that his friends going to use these made up magic magic powers. I can’t make myself believe that magic powers are false, but I can’t say you have the consent to play with this kid or not. Wow. You can go up to them and say, hey, I don’t like you talking about your magic powers. If we’re going to play, we’re not going to use magic powers today, and if he does walk away, go play with somebody else. You know, the, this is your choice. You always have a choice, no matter how, you know, fear based or scary or whatever. You always have a choice. You know, we hear about, um, one of my favorites is John Mccain, you know, pow for years and years and he talks, he talks about having that choice where he could either just kind of succumb to this terrible situation and let it get into them or we can try and stay as happy as he can make jokes, you know? I mean, the beatings weren’t gonna stop. Yeah. But he had the choice about whether he was going to internalize this or not.
Peter Monson : 40:27 And it’s just really powerful.
Braxton: 40:29 That is powerful to be able to have that consent of what do I want? And then being able to teach your kids that they can, they have choice. They have power and choice. And that’s hard too, because you have to teach them, they kind of have power of choice with you. Yeah, to a certain degree. But really for the whole thing, like you’re teaching them to be adults even as a five year old.
Peter Monson : 40:50 I mean you kind of have to.
Braxton: 40:51 Yeah.
Peter Monson : 40:52 And lots of times I feel like I’m like, am I exposing them to too much by saying he has power and choice? Am I going to lose power as a parent?
Braxton: 41:02 That’s probably the scariest thing right there.
Peter Monson : 41:03 And it is very scary. Um, but the idea is I can either set him up to make proper decisions through trial and error at home and then say, okay, take what we’ve learned through trial and error and go out into the world, or I can say, you’re doing this at home, you’re doing this outside of it. Go. And to me, I want to raise somebody who understands that he has power and choice.
Braxton Dutson: 41:31 And that takes a lot of effort. It’s a lot of effort and a lot of thinking and listening
Peter Monson : 41:37 and it’s a lot of mistakes.
Braxton: 41:38 Mistakes, mistakes.
Peter Monson : 41:41 We’re come back and he’s like, “but dad, you said that I couldn’t do that!” And I’m like, “well, I said this, but you always have a choice. Just make the one I want you to make…” Please! And I, I mean, I’m really privileged to have a great kids. But um, you know, they, they think about their choices. They worry about. I think we all do. And the earlier we can expose that, needing to think about your choice before you make it. Um, I think it’s just setting them up for success.
Braxton: 42:18 I completely agree with you when it’s, you put the effort forward at the beginning and then, you got to deal with what your, um, again, the great power and the great responsibility. You give them a lot of responsibility and then they get to choose what they’re going to do. I constantly hear this with parents and this is probably the hardest because it is so value driven. I get it, but “I don’t want my son or my daughter to have sex before they’re married or before a very long relationship” or whatever it is, but a lot of it’s the marriage part and it is. We can’t get anywhere close to that and I’m not saying one or the other is right or wrong. I’m just saying that if you’re teaching them to have consent and they get to make their own choices and they get to work through their decisions on what’s okay and what’s not. There’s gonna be some uncomfortable conversations you will have with them and then ultimately they get to decide what they’re okay with and what they’re not and that may be not what you’re all right with. And how do you deal with that yourself?
Peter Monson : 43:25 I mean, I can share my experience. I grew up in a, in a very strict religious household and sex before marriage you, you were not going to do it. You know, it was pounded. That was our sex education was abstinence. I remember we had an anatomy book and I looked at at one time and felt terrible about myself, so I close it, you know, just sex was bad. Yeah, and so then I got married and I had never had sex before and it was a rough experience because all of a sudden something that had been so bad, I was just supposed to go for it and I didn’t know what I was doing, so I post that up against what if somebody had told me, if you’re going to have sex before marriage, here’s what you need to know. Because of my personal beliefs and my personal religious beliefs, at the time I probably wouldn’t have had sex before marriage, but when I did have sex within marriage, I would have been a lot healthier. You want to take in years of working through things with my spouse away, I could have had so much more comfort in my own relationship. Is it hard to talk to your kids about sex? Yes. Is it hard to talk about consent? Is it kind of an abstract idea that maybe you yourself might even? Not all know the, you know the nuances of. Yes. Does that mean that you don’t try? No.
Braxton: 44:54 Exactly
Peter Monson : 44:54 the work that you put in in the front to manipulate your child into thinking that, hey, this is something that might happen, that might not. Either way, I need to be prepped for it and then slowly saying, hey, here’s some of the reasons that I don’t feel like it’s okay to have sex before marriage. I want you to make your own decisions, but just so you know, this is where I am at it. It’s so empowering.
Braxton: 45:21 Yeah,
Peter Monson : 45:22 and I’m not going to say that that’s going to make it so your kids won’t have sex before marriage.
Braxton: 45:25 No. There’s no. No guarantee.
Peter Monson : 45:27 No, but there is a guarantee that you provide them with the correct education. You explained to them your values. If your kids are adhering to the same religious beliefs that you are, you explain it in a non fear based way so that they’re not afraid either. You know, they’re either going to responsibly go into sex before marriage or they’re going to comfortably go into sex after marriage.
Braxton: 45:51 and all these things come to even what’s uncomfortable if you’ve got a child that’s participating in sexually related activity such as we’re talking, holding hands, I mean intimate building, things that build relationships, holding hands, kissing, making out, cuddling things along those lines that can scare parents to where we tend to get the the Dad’s like, “well, I’ve got my shotgun ready,” like that’s where we jumped to and the joking, but sometimes some parents quite serious like I’m going to use a scare techniques. Sure. Where if you can have that connection and build that connection with them, there’s going to be times where they’ve held hands with someone that they didn’t really want to or maybe they got a kiss and they didn’t like what they felt. Those are beautiful ways to be able to bring up. “What about that did you not like? What about that makes you uncomfortable? If you had a chance to change that, what might you think in the next one was in the next experience? What are you, what do you want to have, what do you want to experience?” You’re creating what I do want, how I would like this time-frames. And you also get to insert your values into that. Like, wow. See, it seems as though, you know, I hear that this felt too fast and I think I agree those, you know, we move really quick and relationships. This is one of the reasons why we say let’s not have sex before marriage because of this and this. Yeah, that is a manipulation technique.
Peter Monson : 45:51
Braxton: 47:17 Of course. It’s also you putting in your values, which is completely okay. But it’s also not saying, “well see if you would just wouldn’t touch boys and you wouldn’t go after the girls, then you wouldn’t have this problem. Like maybe you should listen to me more.”
Peter Monson : 47:32 Yeah. And that, that is so fear based. It is not building the person up. You know, and in some cultures you really don’t touch and with the opposite sex until the time comes. But you know, you gotta think about how are you explaining that in a positive manner, if that’s what your culture is. Um, if you’re explaining it, you know it’s the same thing, it’s not going to change. If that’s your culture and that’s the constant, if it’s not going to change, then change the messaging around it. If sex before marriage is the constant, which we could go into that for awhile, but changing the messaging changes the manipulation tactic. I think you hit it right on the head
48:23 THIS IS NOT MEANT TO SHAME YOU
Braxton: 48:24 and if you find yourself using these techniques like you’re using manipulation techniques that aren’t as helpful or that cause fallout or problems afterwards, and you’re sitting here listening to us being like, “Oh crap, I’m a bad parent, I’m a bad partner.” Let’s stop right there. That’s not what this is for. It’s not to point out while you’re doing this bad, you’re doing that right? Or look at your friend and do this, that shame. Let’s stay away from the shame. This is not to point out this. This is to bring awareness to you, to your friends, to your children, so that you can take that awareness and now act on it. Let’s start making changes. Look up positive ways to interact.
Peter Monson : 49:05 Well, I mean if, if we want to go back to the Marvel Comic Universe, Black Panther, right? Oh yeah. You’re a good man with a good heart and it is hard for a good man with a good heart to be king like you have power just simply by having the ability to communicate. How are you going to do that?
Braxton: 49:26 Yes,
Peter Monson : 49:27 you have to think about this and it’s hard. It’s so much easier to just go off and not think about how you’re manipulating the world around you. So much easier. I unfortunately did it for a lot of years. It broke a lot of bridges. It made a lot of trauma around people, people around me, but it’s because I learned how to manipulate before I learned how to be responsible with my manipulation. When we look at our own power and the responsibility we have at it, and we take that seriously, I believe we are so much better primed to be in relationships, to be parents, to be out there spreading the message than when we’re ourselves not caring about our responsibility. So to a parent who feels shamed for this, I would say please don’t take what we’re saying is shame. Please. If you feel like you’ve been, you know, negatively manipulating people around you, taken as an introspection, take it as that mirror to say, do I do this? Do I not do this? What do I want my messaging, my manipulation to be
Braxton Dutson: 50:38 love it. Think it’s a great way to go about it.
Peter Monson : 50:43 I never asked you, I don’t think. Are You a Batman Guy or superman guy?
Braxton: 50:47 I think total Batman.
Peter Monson : 50:48 Good. Yeah. Good.
Braxton: 50:50 I’m Batman when it comes to that.
Peter Monson : 50:51 I thought we were going to have to end our relationship.
Braxton: 50:56 are you going to try “I see that you like guys that are dressing up and have a ton of money or know that their costume changes that happen really quick, with their glasses. Batman has glasses sometimes. haha just manipulate me back into the good side. I think it was just a little bit too much for me to have Man of Steel can fly, shoot laser beams I love the fortress of solitude. I kinda thought that was kind of a cool place, but besides that I was like, whew, okay, Kryptonite and we have small particles of that here on earth. Maybe. I thought Batman’s super cool because he has all the cool cars. It seems maybe more relatable to me and he can lose, you know.
Peter Monson : 51:43 that’s what I was gonna say. I, probably thought too deep as a kid but had lots of time and lots of dashboard confessional comics around. But the thing I love about Batman is he won’t take a life like that’s his core value. He will not take a life. I’m superman comes, does the destruction goes to a fortress of solitude and feels guilty. To me. That’s a perfect response to knowing your power and seeing the responsibility you have. Yes. That man is fragile. He’s human. He breaks like everybody else. Superman isn’t. What are you going to do with that power? Are you going to say, okay, I’ll never take a life even though it might need mine, or are you going to say, Oh, I’m going to do what I have to do to stop the bad guy and then I’ll go feel bad about it later and shame and guilt and like I always felt like I could relate with Batman and just the idea of I will know my power, I will know what I can and can’t do and I will make sure that even if it means I have to look at myself and see where my morals are from time to time, I’m going to make sure that I’m not, that I’m only doing good, but I’m only impacting for the best and
Braxton: 53:10 that can leave open rooms for when you’re like, I didn’t do that and that’s hard. That’s difficult to see and it can be very, very uncomfortable,
Peter Monson : 53:20 But that’s part of the human experience.
Braxton: 53:22 It is. It is. Be comfortable with feeling uncomfortable
Peter Monson : 53:27 and that’s part of manipulation, you know?
Braxton: 53:30 Yeah, sure is. Are there any others off the top of your head? Do you feel like we need to go over and see? We covered a lot.
53:37 THE WOMAN IN THE RED DRESS, PLAYING INTO THE PATTERN
Peter Monson : 53:37 We did cover a lot. The only thing that I would say the last one is a, it’s iconic throughout a film is the woman in the red dress and I probably
Braxton: 53:54 The Matrix!
Peter Monson : 53:54 Exactly. That’s what I was thinking too, right? Neo standing in a room, everybody’s dressed in black and this is a beautiful woman walks past and aware. I dress. He sees it. All of a sudden he turns and everything shifted. Everything has gotten negative because he was. He was playing into the pattern. The last thing I would say to people would be realize that politics, advertising, you know, these different things that are throwing information out at you are wanting you to not look at yourself first. They’re wanting you to follow the pattern that you’ve had your entire life. Ooh, there’s that big red flashing thing. I’m going to look at that. You always have a choice, but you have to check in with yourself first. Um, I follow news way too much. But when I’m sitting there on my phone looking at news, it’s addictive and if I’m sitting there and my daughter is trying to talk to me and I’m looking at news, I got to check in with myself. You know, that, that quick distraction, the “ooooh, There’s another news story.” For me, I really had to come to a space where I say I’m being manipulated. My core value is that I love my daughter, is this getting in the way of my core value, how do I take power that I have and not give it to others or other systems or other, you know, whatnot and keep it within myself so that I can steer myself on the path that I want to be on. And that, that’s definitely a tactic. It’s all around us. I think it’s so much easier to engage emotionally online, whether I’m in a Facebook fights or whatnot. It’s so much easier than to say, wow, I’m going to put those aside and I’m going to find a way. Even if I had to do some work to go find somebody I can emotionally engage with.
Braxton: 56:06 Yeah, definitely.
Peter Monson : 56:08 It’s just, it’s easier to plug out.
Braxton: 56:09 I think it comes back to your question earlier of what’s the, what is the normal or what does google say that is the normal amount of sex that people should be having during the week it plays, right into “What can I use in order to make things my way or am I normal and if I’m not normal or if this isn’t normal, how do we get to be normal” we got to be okay with saying this is what’s okay for me and what, what, what’s going on for me?
Peter Monson : 56:38 You know, it’s like the word “should” I hate. I despise the word should comes up so much. There’s so much guilt, so much blame, so much questioning. Well, you should be having sex two to three times a week. You should be wearing this. Your body type should be this. It’s like now that triggers a lot of emotions really easily, really fast. It’s a great way for somebody to then input what they want into your thinking. For me, if should comes up in any conversation, that’s when I tune out. That’s when I’m like, I know exactly what you’re doing. I’m, I’m done. Um, but yeah, I mean
Braxton: 57:23 it’s a good trigger word to, to catch even as we’re doing it to ourselves.
Peter Monson : 57:26 Yeah. Oh, I do it to myself all the time.
Braxton: 57:28 We all do.
Peter Monson : 57:29 I should have this job. I should have this much money. I should, you know, be on this career path. should… You know,
Braxton: 57:35 “Shoulding all over yourself.” and that stuff stinks.
Peter Monson : 57:41 That came so close to you needing to edit this out.
Braxton: 57:44 I use that on purpose. I’ll even use that with clients. I’m like, “really? Are you shoulding on yourself?” And they’re like, “Whoa, what??”
Peter Monson : 57:50 Manipulated.
Braxton: 57:51 Yeah, I do it reboots whatever we were talking about in the sense of like you keep saying all these shoulds and it just sounds like should is everywhere and shoulding on yourself. You’re shoulding on others? And I use it for that because how stinking closest to that word and it, it helps people remember. And I’ve found that as in this manipulation technique, that they start to go with “should” and then they’re like, “oh am I shoulding on myself?” because it’s such a close relation to should and are fun Swear word.
Peter Monson : 58:25 Yup. you’re re-formatting the brain to have a new input but with a different costs. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Look, you’re a manipulator already.
Braxton: 58:35 yeah! Manipulating it all. It’s kinda like what Riva Cook Just a couple of episodes ago. She said she has clients. It’ll start going down the Yeah-but trail. They’re like, yeah, but yeah. But she’s like, no, Yeah-Buts eat carrots.
Peter Monson : 58:51 wow, I think I’m going to remember that.
Braxton: 58:56 I’ve never forgotten it. Yeah-Buts eat carrots or cabbage and so it, it restructures the thinking. Or someone says something like, yeah-but, you’re a great person. Yeah-But I don’t have… Yep. Yeah-Buts for carrots. What am I going to accept? What am I not going to do? So I think it’s kind of fun.
Peter Monson : 59:21 Well you do. I mean, you have amazing people on this podcast all the time and I’m just really honored to be one of them, so.
Braxton: 59:28 Well I appreciate you coming on the show.
Peter Monson : 59:30 Thank you again.
Braxton: 59:31 I appreciate your feedback on that. That’s awesome. Thank you. Alright, well I’m glad that you’ve been here with us and thanks so much for being a part of the hive and for being a hive mate. All of us are doing this together and we want to keep growing together, so thanks so much. We’ll see in the next episode.